Transcript: Belgrade Waterfront - part two
Aleksandar Vučić, Prime Minister of Serbia: "There are multiple reasons for passing a special law that will enable the implementation of the Belgrade Waterfront project. Lex specialis, this special law, asserts a public interest in building this commercial and residential complex."
Dragan Marković Palma, United Serbia Party MP: "You are bringing a brand to Serbia. I visited Dubai, and I've seen the biggest, I mean, the tallest building in Europe called Burj Khalifa. It is 828 meters and 164 stories high. You don't need to applaud all the time, only when the moment is right and when it's important."
Aleksandar Vučić: "At the same time, our goal is for Belgrade to become one of the most important city break destinations in the whole of Europe, and we believe that, by building Belgrade Waterfront, we can accomplish that. If at any time anything should happen, we wouldn't lose anything, because we're not risking anything. We are clearing out the space and leaving it for someone in the future to do that and develop it."
Balša Božović, Democratic Party MP: What is the bottom line? The government wants to place responsibility on the National Assembly of the Republic of Serbia, because it got an idea to turn someone's private interest into a public interest."
Zoran Živković, New Party MP: "Things that are to be built in Belgrade Waterfront can by no means be of public interest, even if all the dreams we've been hearing about come true. It is simply something that is contrary to the Constitution and other laws, but I won't speak about that because experts have already said enough about it."
Vladimir Pavičević, New Party MP: "We've always had a plan, then a design, and then the construction. Here we have a model, then the construction, and no design, dear ladies and gentlemen. So, this project is contrary to everything that is a tradition in our two centuries of urban development of our capital."
Dusan Vujović, former Minister of Finance: "We need to learn, in the market economy, to draw the line where individual interest ends, and public interest begins. I will fully support the honoring of private interest, but not to a point where it harms the public interest."
The government of Serbia, headed by Aleksandar Vučić, declared Belgrade Waterfront to be a project of national importance by adopting a special law in 2015.
To the 2009 government, lead by Mirko Cvetkovic, the South Stream project was one of national significance to the state of Serbia.
Both these projects were the result of intergovernmental agreements - now between Serbia and United Arab Emirates (UAE), and then between Serbia and Russia.
It is peculiar that in both instances lex specialis regarding expropriation was passed in exactly the same way - a law on government taking over privately owned property at market prices in the name of public interest. The South Stream project and all the controversy surrounding it were the subject of Insider's Energy Disagreement serial aired in 2011.
The controversial issue then was that the intergovernmental agreement suspended local laws and made numerous concessions to private Russian companies at the expense of state budget and the citizens. The same thing is happening again in the case of the intergovernmental agreement between Serbia and the United Arab Emirates. Is the same excuse being used again for passing laws by which Serbia is once more making numerous concessions, this time to private Arab investors?
The government proposed, and in April 2015, the Serbian National Assembly passed a special law by which the Belgrade Waterfront was defined as a project of special significance to Serbia. By adopting the lex specialis, the realization of the project was enabled. According to this special law, the owners of buildings located in the area where Belgrade Waterfront is to be built, willing or not, must sell their property to the state, at market prices, because that space is to be used for a project of national importance.
Brankica Stanković, Insider: How can a residential and commercial building be of national importance?
Mayor of Belgrade Siniša Mali: Because, Brankica, it is not a residential and commercial building, but a two million square meters development. A project the equal of which has not yet been seen in this part of Europe, and especially not in Serbia and Belgrade.
Brankica Stanković: But where is the public interest in that?
Siniša Mali: Our interest is, firstly, employment of our people. Seven hundred people from Energoprojekt alone are currently working on this project in three shifts. That is our national interest. To boost our economy, our construction industry, for Serbian economy to progress, and for Serbian people to get employment. Not only during the building stage, but also when all is done. Someone is going to be working in those shops, those hotels and those shopping malls. The second interest is for that part of Belgrade to completely change. Why? Because Belgrade Waterfront is a locomotive for other development projects which we are working on and planning for Belgrade.
By that I primarily mean the building of the gondola lift, the widening of the Sava Bridge, i.e. the tram bridge, the landscaping of the Usce Park, and I mean also Block 42, the new central bus station. For decades there has been talk of building a new bus station. We will start building it next year. As for Belgrade Center Railway Station - Prokop, the first phase was completed in January, as you know, the station was opened. Access routes construction has begun. The Belgrade Waterfront project is, whether we are willing to admit it or not, pushing us to complete these other projects that are important to us. And, thirdly, and to me, most importantly, aside from these two things, is the knowledge we are gaining. Those are the effects and that is why this is a project of national significance, and that is all laid out in the statement of the Serbian government and in the very decision to declare this a project of national significance.
Brankica Stanković: Yes, but the reason I asked this is the lex specialis that was passed because of this being of public importance.
Siniša Mali: That is right, it was passed so that certain procedures could be expedited.
Brankica Stanković: Fine, but I am talking about the expropriation law. It is clear what requirements must be met for something to be of national importance. There has to be a public purpose...
Siniša Mali: National importance is what the Serbian government defines as national importance. There is the example - you probably read about it or not - of Croatia, where a lex specialis was passed in order for them to build a golf course. Did you know about that?
Brankica Stanković: Well, that is not a good example.
Siniša Mali: Why not? There is the lex specialis for South Stream.
Brankica Stanković: Lex specialis was passed for that as well, yes.
Siniša Mali: Yes, it was, because it was declared a project of national interest. It is interesting that South Stream hasn't been carried out yet, and it was declared a national interest.
Brankica Stanković: And it won't be carried out.
Siniša Mali: That is right, and we declared something to be of national interest so that we could employ our citizens, give them jobs, and, look, Brankica, it is interesting that that is exactly what is happening.
Brankica Stanković: What percentage of that space is set aside for public purpose, if you could please just tell me that? According to the spatial plan, what percentage of the entire project is designated for public purpose?
Siniša Mali: I think it is around 16 %, if I'm not mistaken.
Brankica Stanković: There, so because of 16%...
Siniša Mali: Well, public purpose implies schools, clinics, squares etc. Lex specialis was not passed because of public purpose buildings.
Brankica Stanković: But because of what?
Siniša Mali: Lex specialis was adopted because someone is bringing in and investing such a large sum of money, which is pushing the Serbian economy forward. Someone who is employing our citizens, our construction companies, who is giving us knowledge we didn't have, and who is, at that, changing the center of Belgrade, changing the whole of Belgrade, changing Serbia and pushing us to complete other projects that have been stalled for decades. That is why this is a project of national significance.
Even though it was declared a project of national significance, in the Belgrade Waterfront joint venture contract, signed between Serbia and the Arab investor, in the article 30, waiver of sovereign immunity, it is stated that it is an exclusively commercial agreement.
Brankica Stanković: That article states: "This Agreement constitutes a commercial transaction and not state contract, public or governmental acts and Republic of Serbia is entering into this Agreement solely in its commercial capacity."
Siniša Mali: That is right, so we can sue the investor if he does not fulfill his obligations. That is good for us.
Brankica Stanković: What is good?
Siniša Mali: The fact that there is no immunity, so they can't...
Brankica Stanković: No, there is no immunity for Serbia here.
Siniša Mali: There is no immunity for either side. This is a commercial contract, Brankica.
Brankica Stanković: Why aren't the laws of this state in effect in a case of a commercial, and not an intergovernmental contract?
Siniša Mali: Did you read the part about immunity carefully? It is very important to us to have the right, because of the very fact that it is a commercial contract...
Brankica Stanković: I did not read this to you because of immunity, but because it clearly states that it is a commercial transaction.
Siniša Mali: Well, it is. I said so in the beginning.
Brankica Stanković: And not an intergovernmental contract?
Siniša Mali: But, Brankica, the first thing I said in the answer to your question was that it was a commercial contract, because it deals with construction, so either way... Mr. Alabar has dozens of such projects.
Article 6 of the Bill on the Confirmation of the Agreement on Cooperation between the Government of the Republic of Serbia and the Government of United Arab Emirates states that agreements, contracts, programs and projects agreed in accordance with this Agreement will not be subject to public procurement, public tender, public competing procedure or any other procedure defined in National legislation of the Republic of Serbia.
It also says that this Agreement shall remain in force for a period of ten years, to be automatically renewed unless terminated. Any Party is entitled to terminate this Agreement at any time.
In accordance to this Agreement, a joint venture agreement for Belgrade Waterfront was signed between Serbia and a private Arab investor.
Brankica Stanković: Then it really turns out that, because of a private investor, the Republic of Serbia is making numerous concessions.
Siniša Mali: In what way?
Brankica Stanković: By passing new laws, lex specialis, land expropriation...
Siniša Mali: But we are not doing that for them, to oblige him, but to oblige us, to keep that investor, to get him, for him to invest his money here, to build the Belgrade Waterfront, to build that tower, to build that shopping mall, to hire our people, for them to teach our architects and civil engineers how to do that, that is of national interest to us. It is our interest to promote our economy.
Brankica Stanković: Well, did you have to give away one hundred hectares for that? They could have gone and trained with him...
Siniša Mali: You need to know one thing. The multiplier in the construction industry is two. With every dinar you invest in the construction industry, you earn one more through services, raw materials that are purchased etc. The effect on our gross national product. We have a rate of economic growth that is slowly rising in the Republic of Serbia and that is great, but we want more, we want an even better growth. One of these projects is the Belgrade Waterfront. Any which way you look at it, right now you don't have a case of someone coming and investing three hundred million Euros in a project in the region, let alone the Republic of Serbia.
Brankica Stanković: Well, they haven't yet invested three hundred millions. They have invested forty three up to now.
Siniša Mali: Imagine you were building a factory, and investing money in it. The money is coming as you invest.
Brankica Stanković: Have you...
Siniša Mali: When you look at the construction... I am inviting you to come and see the construction. All the deadlines are being honored.
Brankica Stanković: No one is denying that.
Siniša Mali: All right, but that is important to me.
Brankica Stanković: All that has...
Siniša Mali: Well, that is why we did it. Everything we did, Brankica, we did to see that construction in the Belgrade Waterfront project.
Brankica Stanković: And that is fine, we just need to see under what conditions.
Siniša Mali: So we wouldn't have to look at shacks.
From the moment the joint venture agreement for the Belgrade Waterfront project was signed, the representatives of relevant institutions stressed that about 95% of land intended for Belgrade Waterfront belongs to Serbia, while 5% is privately owned. Lex specialis made it possible for the privately owned property, with the compensation made to the private owners under market conditions, to be turned into state owned land. With that conclusion, Serbia then invested one hundred hectares as a share in the joint Serbian-UAE company, i.e. leased it out without compensation. In the firm, the Arabian investor is the majority owner with 68%, and Serbia a minority one with 32%.
Even though today the opposition criticizes the adoption of lex specialis for Belgrade Waterfront, they were in fact the ones that passed a law that in 2009, for the first time, made it possible for private property to be practically seized for projects of a private company. Then, a lex specialis was passed for the needs of a Russian-Serbian firm YugoRosGaz in which the Russian companies Gazprom and Centrex have a majority share of 75%, and Srbijagas 25%. Today, for the needs of the UAE-Serbian firm and the development of residential buildings, through lex specialis, the state, under market conditions, takes over privately owned property.
Brankica Stanković: OK, now I'd like to ask you something that no one understands, that most people find difficult to understand - and that is that you decided to adopt a lex specialis and turn private property, may it be 5% or 0.5%, since you keep saying that the city owns 95% of the property... (The Republic of Serbia, but O.K.) The Republic of Serbia, yes, and the private owners 5%. It doesn't really matter, if it's 5, 0.5 or 3%. (Private property is private property.) But the fact is that private property is being seized from someone only to be given to a private investor.
Siniša Mali: But it is not being seized, it is being paid for.
Brankica Stanković: OK, it is being paid for, I apologize.
Siniša Mali: Well, Brankica...
Brankica Stanković: OK, it is being paid for in line with market prices. I'm sorry, I've used the wrong word.
Siniša Mali: Well, it's not the same thing.
Brankica Stanković: Well, maybe someone wouldn't have sold it, but now they are forced to.
Siniša Mali: But, you see, it's interesting, because this project is of national importance to the Republic of Serbia.
Brankica Stanković: But why?
Siniša Mali: I've told you why. I've given you several reasons. If you have another investor who is willing to put up three hundred million Euros, I am certain that the government of the Republic of Serbia would adopt another lex specialis for that project to be carried out as well. We're talking about hundreds of millions of Euros of investments in our country, Brankica. Well, we don't have... We are fighting for every investment. We are fighting for five millions, for two millions, for ten millions. If you find me someone for three hundred millions, I am sure the government, all of us together, would again find interest to adopt a lex specialis for that project to be carried out in our country.
The buildings that unknown persons tore down in the night between April 24th and 25th of this year were in an area allocated for the future Belgrade Waterfront. That space was designated for residential buildings, but they are not to be built before the second phase of the project, after 2019.
In May of this year, while analyzing the contract published on the government of Serbia's website, Insider journalists have found in the annex 5B, written in English, that the deadline for clearing out the area in which Hercegovacka Street is located was June 30th 2016. That was disclosed in "Insider without Limits", 10th of May issue. Up until then, the authorities claimed to have no knowledge of who had done it, because that part of the plot was not needed for the project before the end of 2019, which turned out not to be true.
According to available documentation, the expropriation of the land those buildings were on was legally concluded in February and April of this year, however the lawsuits brought by the users and owners of the buildings on that land against the city and the municipality were not yet resolved. The legal procedure obviously started to drag on due to the lawsuits filed by the owners and so the unidentified persons, with someone's authorization, tore down the buildings by night, with no demolition permits.
For a demolition to be carried out legally, there has to be a demolition order, demolition permit, and the owners must be given time to raze the buildings themselves. Also, according to the regulations, demolition is possible only between 7 a.m. and 10 p.m., and for any other time, a court order is needed. None of this was obtained or done at the moment of the wrecking in Hercegovačka Street. Due to the fact that the demolition was carried out without any orders, in the middle of the night and without prior notice, the owners have not emptied the buildings, and so the property inside was also destroyed with the wrecking.
Aside from the illegal demolition of the buildings, the group of men practically held the citizens, witnesses of the event, captive, taken their phones, made them hold their heads down and stand in one place. That certainly is a crime to which the police should have responded, if it is operating in line with the law, in the service of the state and its citizens.
While, in the first few weeks, the representatives of relevant institutions, the city authorities and the government of Serbia claimed that they do not know who wrecked the buildings in Belgrade by night, the ombudsman Sasa Jankovic conducted control proceedings in regard to police conduct in the night of the demolition and stated that that was an organized violation of the citizens' rights, orchestrated on several levels between several governmental and non-governmental entities.
The greatest suspicion that the relevant institutions had, at least tacitly, approved the demolition was raised immediately by the conduct of the police whose duty it was to protect the citizens, and who, on that night, had not responded to the pleas of citizens to go out to the scene and establish who is destroying other people's property.
Aleksandar Vučić: May 2016 "We are talking about illegal buildings, and so I'm wondering, if someone from the city or municipal government did that, why didn't they do it in broad daylight."
Aleksandar Vučić: "Whoever took part in that is a complete idiot."
Siniša Mali: "Neither the city of Belgrade, nor any other city institution participated in that. I control their work and I am responsible for that, and as for everything else, I leave that to those whose job that is."
Jovan Grbavac, Representative of Savski Venac Municipality: "I have no knowledge that that was done, nor who did it."
Danilo Jeremić, Representative of Belgrade Waterfront: "Everything you read on Twitter and the internet, we read it, too."
Nikola Nikodijević, President of the City Assembly of Belgrade: "The main thing right now is that the city departments did not do that, and what is certain - no one reported anything to the police, and what is also certain, no one saw it yet. It all comes down to claims of a few people..."
Aleksandar Vučić: "Highest city officials are behind this."
For five months now, the Prosecutor's Office has been investigating who demolished the buildings in Hercegovačka Street with excavators, by night and with no demolition order.
Siniša Mali: The Prime Minister, at that moment, had his information that he shared. I haven't talked about it with him, but he also said that it is necessary for relevant authorities, the Prosecutor's Office and the police, to do their part of the job, before it becomes known what happened there, and how it happened. That is my wish also, for what happened there and how to be revealed.
Brankica Stanković: But you are one of the highest city officials.
Siniša Mali: But it is not mine to say what happened there. Having in mind that the city institutions...
Brankica Stanković: Did the Prime Minister mean you, or not?
Siniša Mali: You should ask him that, not me.
Brankica Stanković: Well, you are the Mayor.
Siniša Mali: The city of Belgrade has... It is important for me to say, as the Mayor of Belgrade, and I stand behind what I say based on the information that I have, that no city institution had its hand in that event that night. That is very important.
Brankica Stanković: So that means Prime Minister Aleksandar Vučić is not telling the truth?
Siniša Mali: And everything... Brankica, I haven't said that. I haven't said that. I only said...
Brankica Stanković: But he said that the highest city officials are behind it.
Siniša Mali: I only said... I only said that... My answer is, once again, that the city institutions who would be responsible for that, like the Department of Legalization, Department of Inspection, like...
Brankica Stanković: You mean, the city institutions haven't taken part in that and you still claim that?
Siniša Mali: Yes, that's what I mean. Yes, and all the information that were necessary, that were requested by the police, by the prosecutor and Sasa Jankovic, were delivered. I leave it... I would really leave it...
Brankica Stanković: Yes, but you...
Siniša Mali: I personally think it's best to legally... To show how the right way... To show how a proper state works and for the Prosecutor's Office and the police to say what happened there. I am neither a policeman, nor a prosecutor.
Brankica Stanković: But you are the Mayor.
Siniša Mali: That is right, and I am telling you what I have just told you.
Brankica Stanković: Well, yes, you should be interested in what happened there, should you not?
Siniša Mali: I am absolutely interested.
Brankica Stanković: If you are not involved...
Siniša Mali: Brankica, I am absolutely interested, because we have been defending ourselves for months now.
Brankica Stanković: Well, didn't you ask the Prime Minister which one of the top city officials is it? He meant someone in particular.
Siniša Mali: I think that, when you saw the Prime Minister give the statement, you heard that he said we should leave it to the Prosecutor's Office and the police to do their part of the job.
Brankica Stanković: OK, but someone did it. Someone under your authority, if not you?
Siniša Mali: I say that it's not what happened. That is what I'm saying. I'm saying that none of the institutions of the city of Belgrade did that.
Brankica Stanković: OK, not an institution, but an individual who is part of the city authority obviously made that decision.
Siniša Mali: The investigation will establish that and I am looking forward to it. The investigation, the Prosecutor's Office...
Brankica Stanković: And you don't know?
Siniša Mali: The police...
Brankica Stanković: You don't know who decided to raze Hercegovačka Street in the middle of the night?
Siniša Mali: No.
Brankica Stanković: Well, I think no one will believe that.
Siniša Mali: Well, it's not for you to believe it. The Prosecutor's Office, the police and any other relevant authority should believe me... should establish that.
Brankica Stanković: But it's impossible that you don't know who did it.
Siniša Mali: But, how could I know? Am I a policeman?
Brankica Stanković: Well, wait a minute. You are the Mayor, and someone tore down a part of the city with bulldozers and excavators in the middle of the night.
Siniša Mali: But I am very interested to find out who did that.
Brankica Stanković: The contract states that it is the obligation of Serbia to clear out that part of town. The foreign investor couldn't have done it.
Siniša Mali: Well, this wasn't part of terrain clearing, Brankica. Up to now, we have, together with the Serbian government, cleared almost three hundred and seventy buildings from that location. Three hundred and seventy buildings.
Brankica Stanković: Yes.
Siniša Mali: Here, we are dealing with twelve buildings, if you went through the analysis... Maybe you have, maybe you haven't. The procedures the Republic of Serbia started against those illegal owners started in 2010, before me, before you, Belgrade Waterfront, before everything.
Brankica Stanković: That is a straw man argument.
Siniša Mali: Well, no, I'm just saying... Out of those twelve proceedings, eleven were finalized, and there was only one remaining. So, in the next couple of months, weeks, whenever, those buildings would also have been removed. Why would anyone from the city government do that in such a way?
Brankica Stanković: Well, why?
Siniša Mali: Well, I'm asking you.
Brankica Stanković: Well, why are you asking me? I can't know that. We have...
Siniša Mali: You're accusing me that we, as the city government, did that, and I'm saying...
Brankica Stanković: I'm not accusing you, the Prime Minister accused you.
Siniša Mali: The Prime Minister didn't say that.
Brankica Stanković: Not you personally, he said: "The highest city officials".
Siniša Mali: That is right, and he said that, but let's wait and see what the Prosecutor's Office and police say. We are going around in circles. I have no problem...
Brankica Stanković: Because it's a big responsibility.
Siniša Mali: It is a big responsibility, and it is in my interest, as the Mayor of Belgrade, for the investigation to be concluded as soon as possible and accountability established. Absolutely...
Brankica Stanković: Because it really happened as if we were in the Wild West. Organized crime, gangs tearing down the city at night...
Siniša Mali: I agree with you completely.
Siniša Mali: But, Brankica, I also think that what happened is bad for the city of Belgrade, and we do not disagree on that. And it is in my interest, as the Mayor of Belgrade, for what exactly happened to be determined.
Brankica Stanković: And why didn't you find that to be reason enough to resign or at least offer your resignation? If something you couldn't control happened, you don't know who did it, and information are being concealed from you...
Siniša Mali: But... I'll say it once again, Brankica. I am the Mayor of Belgrade, not a policeman or a prosecutor. What happened in Belgrade is a very bad thing, a very bad thing, and we agree there, both you and I, and all the people of Belgrade probably. But let us see who's to blame. I can only say that I have a moral problem because it happened in Belgrade, but it could have happened in any other part of any other town in Serbia.
Brankica Stanković: OK, but it happened in Belgrade.
Siniša Mali: Well, OK, let's see who did it.
Brankica Stanković: Do you know that the police did not respond to the calls of the citizens that night?
Siniša Mali: That's what Sasa Jankovic wrote in his report. How can I comment on that? On whether they responded or not. I am not an inspector.
Brankica Stanković: Yes, but you are the Mayor of all the citizens of this city.
Siniša Mali: I am not a policeman. For instance, how can I ask?
Brankica Stanković: Why didn't you, for instance, demand a resignation of Minister of Interior Stefanovic? It is unacceptable to refuse to protect the citizens that have you as their Mayor.
Siniša Mali: But we are now waiting for the results of the investigation to show what happened there and how. You say that it happened this way, someone else says it happened that way... I don't have the right to be the judge and jury and say how it happened. Brankica, let them say how it happened. Let a formal, public report state how it happened. And then, let me tell you, I am ready to accept full responsibility if the investigation confirms that I am to blame.
Brankica Stanković: Well, wait a minute. You said you are not to blame?
Siniša Mali: Well, of course I am not, but I said that I will honor the relevant authorities. I am honoring the process the Prosecutor's Office must go through. That is really what I want and what the Prime Minister said. I am personally interested in this being solved as soon as possible, because it is good for Belgrade for this to be solved and for us to move on. But I also care a great deal that it should be done in a legally correct way.
Brankica Stanković: When did you hear about it? The next day, that night... When did you learn what happened?
Siniša Mali: I learned the next day, when the Belgrade Information Service informed me that it happened.
Brankica Stanković: And what was your reaction?
Siniša Mali: It was catastrophic. I didn't understand what happened. But I expected, as you said, the police to go to the scene, conduct an investigation and see what happened.
Brankica Stanković: Yes, it was well organized. Someone had to turn off the electricity, that machinery could not be rented just anywhere.
Siniša Mali: It's possible, Brankica, but I don't know that.
Brankica Stanković: That means that someone, just like the Prime Minister said, high-ranking from the city government had to give authority.
Siniša Mali: Let's see who that was.
Three months ago, the Prime Minister of Serbia Aleksandar Vučić said that the highest city officials are behind the demolition.
The Mayor says he was not involved and that he does not know who the Prime Minister was talking about. Goran Vesić, the City Manager, has stated on several occasions that he had nothing to do with that event, and that that kind of action does not fall under his authority.
Minister of Internal Affairs Nebojša Stefanović made a first public statement regarding this case six days after the demolition, announcing that, following the request of the Prosecutor's Office, the police would commence an investigation. However, only after ten days have passed from the destruction did the Prosecutor's Office announce that it requested the gathering of necessary information regarding the case of nocturnal demolition in the Savamala neighborhood.
When the Prosecutor's Office concludes the investigation that has been continuing for so long for inexplicable reasons, the conclusion of the Prosecutor's Office as to what crimes had been committed, and whether there were any, will be announced, and the final word will rest with the courts. The nocturnal demolition in Hercegovačka Street was carried out with excavators, without the demolition orders, by unknown persons in black uniforms exactly five months ago. To this day, it has not been established who is responsible for that.
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